The Mystical Initiations of Love, Part 2

February 16, 2015 Divine Love Talk

Host: Dr. Parthenia Grant

Co-host: Kim Michaels

Topics: Kim’s book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. Growth is really the purpose of the relationships. Sexuality. Spiritual does not mean ALWAYS harmonious or being a doormat. 

Parthenia:Alright. I am delighted to be back today to continue our discussion with Kim Michaels' new book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. (Amazon paperback or Kindle) Did I get it right Kim?

Kim Michaels:Yeah, you did.

Parthenia:OK. Now, I think it's time for a new love paradigm. We are on the third ray of love in 2015. And today, I wanted to focus on the perversions of love that we have inherited from the Piscean paradigm. And how we can bridge the polarities of what the 1960s brought in of this whole free love thing, versus the old school suppression –

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:– of the sexual urge. And there's just so much that the book offers that I've resonated with. That I'd figured a lot of this stuff out when I was an adolescent, looking at the relationships around me. And reading this book really re-affirmed many of the choices that I just intuitively made along the way. But now, this information is being offered on a wider scale. Because I was actually teaching a lot of this stuff in my classrooms.

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:And I think it's very much needed. So, I'm just so excited and so grateful that you have released this book, Kim. So, why don't we start out with – I wanted to focus today on the perversion of love, as it relates to people thinking that when you are in a spiritual relationship that it means that a peaceful spiritual relationship means that you're just totally passive in that relationship. So, could you start out with that perversion?

Kim Michaels:Yeah. I've met a lot of spiritual people over the years who feel that if you are spiritual, you have to be completely harmonious. And that means you always have to speak softly and you never get upset and you never really speak your opinion. And so, you kind of become a doormat.


Kim Michaels:And I probably had a tendency to do that, myself. Especially, when I was younger; because I felt I couldn't allow myself to be angry or irritated or that kind of thing. Because that wasn't “spiritual.”


Kim Michaels:And I think we have to find a more constructive way to deal with that and recognize that we have emotions and allow ourselves to express them. And that's what the book talks about. That you may have to go through a period where you actually acknowledge your negative emotions, if you want to call it that. The book doesn't call it that, but a lot of people do.

Parthenia:Right. Yeah.

Kim Michaels:But you have to dare to express them. And in a relationship, you may have to go through a period where you can allow each other to express your feelings freely, without getting the usual reaction from your partner.

Parthenia:Without condemnation or blame. Basically just being able to say: “This is how I feel right now, in this moment. It doesn't mean that I'm going to feel this way permanently. But these are my feelings.” And being able to feel comfortable and safe enough to express what you're feeling in that moment and know that you are not going to be attacked. And also, knowing that the other person is not going to judge or condemn you for feeling that way. I think that relationships need to offer a safe harbor for expression and freedom of speech. Because you know how close that is to my heart.

Kim Michaels:Um-hum.

Parthenia:To be able to speak the truth, as you are experiencing it in that moment. So, I've looked at those kind of relationships. And the book talked about how what happens is you've got one person, who becomes very dominant. And they express how they feel. And then, the other person just basically has to shut up and put up with it to have peace. And that's not peace in a relationship.

Kim Michaels:And I know it's a big challenge for a lot of couples. Especially, if you have been in a relationship for a while and you have built up certain reactionary patterns with each other. And I think it actually takes a lot of courage. And it takes a lot of awareness. Because you have to do what you said. You have to shift the relationship so that you can feel at least you can have sometimes when you can say: “Now, we're safe. Now, you can say anything you want and there's nothing that's really wrong here.” Because what we learn, a lot of us – And I know I certainly learned this myself, even as a young child. – that there were certain emotions you just couldn't express.


Kim Michaels:In my case, it was that boys don't cry. And I also had a mother and a father, who didn't acknowledge their emotions, who didn't express their emotions at all, hardly.


Kim Michaels:The only thing they did was if they got really, really irritated. And so, I grew up learning there was no point in expressing my emotions; because I always got a negative reaction when I did. So, I learned to stuff them. And that, of course, I carried with me into my relationships.

Parthenia:Of course.

Kim Michaels:And that quickly – I probably even attracted partners who had the opposite tendency of expressing their feelings more clearly. And then, that created that same pattern, where I would then –

Parthenia:Shut down.

Kim Michaels:– stuff my feelings. Yeah. Of course. And I think a lot of relationships are in that pattern.

Parthenia:And anything that you don't express, you're going to suppress. And when you suppress anything, it's going to build up. It always reminds me of that Langston Hughes poem: “What happens to a dream differed?” Does it sag like a heavy load? (“Maybe it just sags like a heavy load.”) “Or does it explode?” Eventually, all of those emotions become this heavy load that you're carrying with you. And it turns into resentment and anger. And you can't have a healthy relationship; unless you find a balance, where both people are free to speak their true feelings in that moment without attacking the other person.

And I do believe that that takes a high degree of consideration and compassion and love for yourself and for the other person. If you love yourself, you know that you have the right to express how you feel. And at the same time, when you love that other person; you also know that you want to talk to that person. Even though you feel hurt or upset by something that that person did, you want to be able to talk to them in a way that it's someone that you love. You talk to people as if they're someone that you love.

And for myself, in learning to get there, I had to walk away and look at myself and ask: “OK. Is this my issue? Or is this something that the other person is doing? Or is it both of us?” And then, kind of sort it through before I could come back and then talk to the person and say: “OK. This is my part of it and I want to own this. But this other part.” I have these things that I call – They're deal breakers.

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:“This is a deal breaker for me. And I don't think I can honestly live with this. And so, can we talk about how we can work through this? And if we can't, then maybe we can just part ways peacefully. But honestly, this is a deal breaker for me.” And I think people have to know what their deal breakers are in relationships.

Kim Michaels:I think that's a very good point. I have a personal experience. Since I have a tendency to stuff my emotions, in order to avoid upsetting other people; – And that's the pattern I learned in childhood. – it 's very, very difficult for me to express my feelings, if the other person gets upset about it.

Parthenia:Yes. Absolutely. And that's what I'm talking about. There has to be a safe space for that person to express their feelings. Because I was forced to stuff mine as a child, or I was going to get beaten. Or there was threat of death, if you talked back or said anything.

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:So, I totally understand that. And trying to find my voice, that's how I became a writer is I had to write about things, versus talking about them. So, it's been a long journey. … And that's what love does is it allows.

Kim Michaels:Yeah. It allows you to be who you are, even if it's temporarily and you are out of sorts or you need to express something. See, the thing I have seen in a lot of relationships, including my own, is that you get into a pattern with partners. And then, it's almost like – And the book actually talks about this. – where you have created these internal spirits that are reacting with each other. It's just these patterns. And you're not aware of them. And you can't break them. And that means that, all of a sudden, you're not really – there isn't really any room for love; because it's just these patterns.

Parthenia:Yes. Exactly.

Kim Michaels:It's like two computers that are responding to each other. (Both laugh.) You push this button. I'm going to do this. You push that button. I'm going to do something else. And so, I think love really requires you to be willing to look at your relationship and look at yourself. And I know that's very difficult. It can be very, very difficult.

Parthenia:Yes. And I agree, which is why it always has to begin with you. And I think that a certain level of discernment has to be there. … I've just never been able to deal with that whole insane thing of dealing with the same issue over and over and over. So, somebody's got to be the bigger person.

Kim Michaels:But again, that's where you run into the patterns. Because, for example, myself. I have a tendency to stuff my emotions, right. So, if you ask me: “Express your emotions.” That's difficult for me. And I feel unsafe doing it, because I'm so used to stuffing them. And that's safe. That's what I'm used to. Then,I notice that the kind of people that I have sometimes attracted to me, who are very vocal in expressing their emotions.


Kim Michaels:They actually, strangely enough, get very upset when other people do the same thing.

Parthenia:Of course. (Laughs.)

Kim Michaels:So, that's why I'm saying it's so easy to continue in the pattern so that the person who stuffs his emotions says: “Oh, I'm not going to express any emotions. The other person gets upset. I'm just going to clam up, like I always do. Then,everything will be OK.” And you can even think, if you are the quiet one, you can think: “Well, I'm being the bigger person, because I'm not getting upset. And so –

Parthenia:Of course. Yeah. But, come on, but you know it's not true. You're not getting anywhere. Nothing gets solved.

Kim Michaels:Of course. But it's still hard to break that pattern.

Parthenia:(Laughs.) And look. I'm not saying it's easy. But I'm saying that if we're going to pass the initiations of love; this is what I've learned along the way is that one person in that relationship is going to have to put themselves out there. …


Parthenia:OK. We’re back, continuing our discussion on The Mystical Initiations of Love, Kim Michaels’ new book. We're looking at some of the perversions of love and how we can create a new love paradigm. Kim, we were talking about how this one perversion of love is this passivity, where ultimately one partner in the relationship will dominate the relationship and control the other person and shut them down and create a situation where you don't feel safe, in terms of speaking you're feelings. And if there's not this space to grow in a relationship and to express your discomfort so that you can move out of that space; then that relationship is not going to flourish. And eventually, it's going to disintegrate; because we have to have the space to be free to speak our truth. And I think that that's probably a very important foundation for any relationship is to make it safe to speak your truth.

Kim Michaels:I agree. And I think one of the important points that is being made in the book several times is that we have all grown up with kind of a naive view of the purpose of relationships; because we are so fed with the whole happily ever after, and you've found the one and only, and everything should be perfect. And so, what the book states very clearly is for all people, actually. But especially for spiritual people, you should realize that the purpose of a relationship is to grow. And the way you grow is that your partner causes you to react. And then, you look at your reactions. And then, you say: “What does my reaction say about my own psychology and what I haven't resolved?”

Parthenia:Right. Exactly.

Kim Michaels:And the book actually says that we have all – without knowing this – we have attracted partners that will bring out exactly in ourselves what we need to see.

Parthenia:… And it's not healthy to be overly dramatic. And it's certainly not healthy to stuff them. So, we've got to find this balance somewhere in relationships to just give both partners permission to feel safe to talk about how they feel.

Kim Michaels:I agree with you. I mean my initial reaction was: “What? Men have feelings?” (Both laugh.) Because that's what we were brought up to think we don't have. And I think that's very much a cultural thing that we need to get over. And I think we have. A lot of spiritual people obviously have become much more aware of that. And a lot of spiritually interested men are much better at this. And many women are more aware of it. But still, it's something we need to be more conscious of.

Parthenia:And I think the book is very helpful in that respect. And also just talking about it. Men getting together with women, I think more often. Because I always think about this book that said what men know about women. And when you open it, it's blank. (Both laugh.) And they will go to each other to try to get advice on how do I deal with my girlfriend or my wife or my mother or sister. … Go to a woman. Talk to other women that you know. And they will tell you truth about how to deal with other women in your life. And the book talked about, not just men, but all of us, are going to have to learn how to develop relationships with the opposite sex that are loving relationships that are not based in sex. We've got to learn that sex and love are not necessarily synonymous. … But you can love someone of the opposite sex and not feel that you have to have sex with that person, because you love them or you're attracted to them. So, I thought that that was a wonderful discussion in the book that I'd like to get into after commercial break. How we can move into that space.

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:And I think that men are probably more challenged in trying to do that – 

Kim Michaels:Definitely.

Parthenia:– than women. But we need to it. …


Parthenia:OK. Right before commercial break we were talking with my co-host Kim Michaels about his new book, The Mystical Initiations of Love … And in this segment we want to look at the polarities that have to do with suppression of sex versus the other polarity of the whole free love that came out of the sixties. Either one of those can block the flow of love. So, Kim, I'd like to start out in this segment with, again, suppression; but on a different level.

Kim Michaels:I think it's very important what you talked about earlier, where you said: “What do men know about women? And the book was blank.” But what is the reason for that? The reason is that the way most of us have grown up, it's very difficult to get to know anything about women; because it's difficult to talk to women in a relaxed way. Think about most teenage boys. How do we ever get to talk to a girl in a relaxed manner without there being this undertone of sexual attraction, which we are so programmed with we're supposed to have this sexual attraction? And so, you meet a girl that you can talk to and then, you end up getting into a relationship or marrying that girl. And then, after you've gotten into that relationship; you can't talk to any other women in a relaxed way. Because either you're wife's going to get jealous or feel that that's inappropriate or whatever. You know what I mean?


Kim Michaels:So, what we really, I think, need to create is this space where men and women can talk together without having this undercurrent of sexuality that creates the tension all the time.

Parthenia:… And I always create this real safe environment for the men and women to talk to each other in the classroom. And it's very challenging in the beginning to get men to tell how they really think about women. And women tend to be very focal about what they think about men. But it's kind of like pulling hen's teeth with guys. I always take surveys. I would say: “So, how many of you guys feel that you can actually be friends with a woman that you are attracted to?”

Kim Michaels:Uh-huh.

Parthenia:And not one single guy ever raised his hand. And they were very adamant that: “Oh, if I'm attracted to her. Oh, no. I have no interest in being her friend. I want to be with her. Or if I can't be with her, then I can't be around her.” And so, there is this polarity there that we need to create a bridge of being able to give yourself permission to be friends with a woman of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. And I've had a lot of success in my classes in bridging this and creating this zone of comfortability – 

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:– where guys can say how they feel and tell women the truth. And women can talk about how they feel. And what was really interesting is guys, when I'd finally get them to talk and they would tell women the truth. It was really funny. Like guys would say: “OK. Yeah. I don't like it when a woman doesn't – You get into a relationship with her and she just, then, totally forgets about her personal appearance. I liked her the way that she was, when we first got together.” And then, the women would just get all bent of shape and say: “Yeah, but you're supposed to love me and not the way that I look.” And it's like: “Women. OK. The guys are telling you how they feel. (Both laugh.) So, get over it.” 

Kim Michaels:And see, that is probably a very important point there; because women are better at expressing their feelings. But if men do the same, then the women don't know how to deal with that.

Parthenia:(Laughs.) But you gotta start somewhere.

Kim Michaels:Yeah. Yeah.

Parthenia:You gotta create this space.

Kim Michaels:That's why you have to create this safe space there.

Parthenia:Exactly. … I was kind of tickled when I was reading your book about how we have to learn how to just be friends with the opposite sex –

Kim Michaels:Um-hum.

Parthenia:– when you're attracted to them. That it's not necessarily synonymous that just because you're attracted to them, that you have to have sex with them.

Kim Michaels:Yeah.

Parthenia:And I proven that you can be friends with a woman that you're attracted to and there doesn't have to be any sex involved at all. … 

Kim Michaels:I think as a man, once you get to that point where you realize, here is a woman you can be friends with, and you can almost – Because one of things I think men are good at, actually, is looking at a situation and making a decision. And once we have clarified the situation and we can make a decision about it; then we can easily live with it. And so, I think once you look at a relationship and say: “OK. There's no sex here.” Then,you are almost – you feel liberated. You feel free. It's like: “Ah, it's a relief to have a relationship with a woman without this undercurrent of sexuality.”

Parthenia:I think so. …

Kim Michaels:And I'm just thinking I have actually come across several incidences where I know that the women, they can have a more relaxed relationship with a gay man than with a straight man.


Kim Michaels:Because there isn't the sex.


Kim Michaels:And really, we should be able to have that relationship regardless of sexual orientation.

Parthenia:And I think that that's what your book is saying is that we've got to get to this point. Because the book was talking about how let's say and gave the example of you're married. And you're in a relationship and you have kids, and then you meet someone that you're sexually attracted to. Does this mean that you have to leave that relationship and the kids to carry on this relationship with someone else that you're attracted to? And it doesn't have to be that way. Normally, that's what would happen. An affair would ensue or the guy would leave the wife for the other woman.

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:But there should be the freedom to be able to work through whatever that karma is or those feelings are in a safe environment. But I think it takes a level of integrity and a high level of consciousness to be able to work through that. ...

Kim Michaels:It's going to take, definitely, a paradigm shift; because I'm reminded, as you were talking, about this old saying: “It takes a village to raise a child.”


Kim Michaels:And the idea is, of course, that it isn't just enough for the parents. That you need a multitude of different people playing different roles. And so the same, you look at a man, you look at a woman, you look at an entire lifetime. And can a man really fulfill his growth potential through being in a relationship with only one woman?

Parthenia:Or one woman, the same thing.

Kim Michaels:The same thing with a woman. So, does that mean, as you said, that you have to break up these relationships all the time? Or could you have a situation where you can have a physical relationship. You are agreeing to raise children and you can feel secure in that relationship. And then, both the man and woman can have friends and some of them might be of the opposite sex, but you KNOW that it only goes so far.

Parthenia:Yes. Exactly. And what is wrong with that? I know that it's possible, but it's going to take a lot of work for us to be able to get to that level of transparency and freedom in relationships.

Kim Michaels:But the thing is, are we so far away from that; when you think about all that's been happening in the, so called, sexual revolution since the sixties? Isn't it just a matter of shifting just a little bit, where we become aware of relationships in a new way? And I really think the key here is the spiritual dimension.


Kim Michaels:Where you realize that growth is really the purpose of the relationships. And that's when you can do what you were saying. That you can realize: “Oops. I'm feeling attracted to this person of the opposite sex. Maybe this is some kind of karmic relationship I have from a past lifetime that I need to work out. And maybe I can do that without having a physical relationship and breaking up my other relationship.

Parthenia:And you can. … And once it's real clear that these are the boundaries; you most definitely can be friends with someone of the opposite sex, who is in another relationship. But again, I have to put it on the woman; because I think that it's easier for us to be able to manage that sexual energy or attraction than it is for men. Because men have never been held accountable for managing that, because women have always been blamed for men being attracted to us.

Kim Michaels:But that's also where we need a paradigm shift. And I think, again, that can only come from the spiritually interested men, who realize that it really isn't compatible with spiritual growth to have unlimited expression of your sexual energies. You need to learn a way to balance them.

Parthenia:I agree. And your book made that clear that you will burn out your chakras with this whole: “I've got to have sex with any and everything that I'm attracted to.” And you still see that paradigm in young boys today. And even older men. It's just like: “Wow, where does this end?” And you can look at them physically and they're physically burned out, mentally and emotionally burned out and the energy is very scattered. But it just becomes sort of like an addiction for them that they've got to chase.

Kim Michaels:And that's what I think we've got to recognize, as spiritual men, that we live in a society that really is programming us to have – It's programming us with the idea that we have a sex deficit. No matter how much sex you have, you still have a deficit.

Parthenia:(Laughs.) Right.

Kim Michaels:And actually, men who have gotten, like you said, into this spiral where the more sex they have, the more deficit they feel they have. And that never ends. And so, we have to be smarter than that and realize we have to set the boundaries. And I realize it with myself. It's so easy to look at some of the pictures in the advertising. But it's also so easy to say: “Oh, I'm not going to go there.”

Parthenia:Absolutely. It is a shift in consciousness. It totally is a matter of focus.

Kim Michaels:Yep.

Parthenia:I noticed that after my second divorce, it was nothing for me to be celibate for years. It was just like this is my focus. My focus was my work, writing, my students and I just couldn't be bothered mingling my energy in an intimate relationship with someone that I could see, after the first or second date, that there wasn't enough there to sustain a relationship. And so, I think that that paradigm has to do with: “OK. Is there something here more than physical attraction that could actually sustain a relationship?”

Kim Michaels:Right.

Parthenia:And we've gotta start putting that on the table, versus this physical attraction and letting that lead the way into relationships that cannot be sustained.

Kim Michaels:Because it really becomes an enormous drain on your energy. And I think, once you become aware of that and then you realize that you only have so much energy. So, you have to decide does it go down in the base chakra and get expressed in sexual energy or does it go up the spine and lighten up all the chakras so you feel spiritually connected? That's the choice you have to make.

Parthenia:I agree 100%. And I think that that's the work that we have to do as spiritual people this year in 2015 as we are going through the initiations of the ray of love. You're listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN. I'm your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant, with my co-host, Kim Michaels, and his new book, The Mystical Initiations of Love.



Copyright © 2015 Kim Michaels


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