The Mystical Initiations of Love, Part 4


March 30, 2015 Divine Love Talk

Host: Dr. Parthenia Grant

Co-host: Kim Michaels

Topics: Kim’s book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. The free love movement. Sex addictions. Men programmed to sex. Men and women being friends.

Parthenia:OK. I'm delighted to be back here this week, continuing my discussion with Kim Michaels about his amazing book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. Today, I wanted to go over questions, such as: “Is there such a thing as free love?” The free love movement started back in the sixties. Is it free love, or was it about free sex? And questions like: “Is it possible to freely express love toward the opposite sex without stirring up sexual energy?” And why do we feel so uncomfortable in this day and age, the new millennium, talking about sex? And what about the question of whether the free love movement benefited men, while opening up women to a new form of tyranny? And a lot more in this coming hour. Welcome, Kim Michaels.

Kim Michaels:Thank you.

Parthenia:Well, thank you for joining us. So, I've been really pondering these questions, myself; because in my critical thinking classes I was probably, other than the sex education instructors, the only one in critical thinking who allowed an open forum to discuss relationships and all of the issues between men and women with sexuality today. And the students absolutely loved it, but the administration wasn't too happy with it. (Laughs.) But they wanted and needed an open forum. And the context of a lot of the literature that we were discussing, it just seemed appropriate, since nobody else was doing it, that we were able to do it in what I felt was a safe, open environment. But let's open up with the sixties and the whole free love movement. I had Eric pull up Tina Turner's song, What's Love Got to Do With It; because I think that kind of opened up this question, after the fact. (Plays song.) OK. Sorry about that, the garbling of the sound. But I think we got the gist of it. That whole issue was brought up in your book about love and sex being synonymous and the fact that we needed to address that issue. So, I wanted to just turn that over to you, Kim.

Kim Michaels:Talking about the sixties, I obviously wasn't there. (Parthenia laughs.) Because I do remember them, but I was a little young to be part of the whole hippie movement. And I wasn't interested in sex at that point. 

Parthenia:I was coming of age during that time, too. So, I understand. But I was cognizant of what was going on and paying attention to it.

Kim Michaels:And I was aware of it, too. I have to say I was not personally attracted to the whole idea of rebelling against society, of having freedom of everything. It seemed to me that there had to be some kind of responsibility. And I think what happened there was that after a very long time of suppressing the topic of sex and people's sexual energies; it was unavoidable that people swung to the opposite extreme.


Kim Michaels:And I think that is really what happened. They swung from one extreme to the next. And I don't think that was healthy, but I think it was a necessary stage in the evolution. So, I think what we need to come to, now that we are moving rapidly into the Aquarian Age, is a balanced view, the middle way.

Parthenia:And that's going to take some doing. As I look around me, people are feeling that they need a new paradigm; but they're not sure where it is or what's it's going to be. All they know is that the old ways of doing things aren't working anymore. So, I think everybody's searching and trying to figure it out. And, at the same time, still trying to drag the old and over-lay it onto the new.

Kim Michaels:I think one possible way to address the whole issue is in terms of energy. And I mean psychic energy, emotional and mental energy; because we know that everything is energy. What we just haven't realized in western culture is that we have psychic energy, mental/emotional energy, and that everything we do has a cost in terms of energy. And so does sex.


Kim Michaels:Especially, when you have sex with different partners; it is such an intimate act that there's a lot of exchange of energy that's going on.


Kim Michaels:And I think that if you are a spiritual person, it is not that difficult to increase your awareness and sensitivity to what happens at an energy level. It doesn't have to be sex. Whatever activity you are into. I have learned that in my life, that I could feel whether it raises my energies or lowers my energies. And it's something people can feel. A lot of people can feel it in their heart, if they put their attention to it. So, I think what we need to do is to be honest and develop that sensitivity. But in order to do that, we can't have these preconceived opinions, where we actually refuse to use our sensitivity; because we have some kind of idea that it should be good to have free sex, so we don't really want to feel what it does to us at an energy level.

Parthenia:And this whole disconnection between the heart chakra and the sexual chakra, the base chakra. I think that was the disassociation and the disconnect, pretty much throughout patriarchy. You can't really say it was just the sixties that disconnected it. But that is something I think we really need to look at, is reconnecting those centers, the sexual energy with the love energy.

Kim Michaels:That's definitely true. Because we do have – In all countries I think, but especially, in the United States, which is still very a much a Christian nation and also affected somewhat of the kind of black and white thinking that goes all the way back to the Old Testament. We do have this tendency to suppress sexuality and think that it's somehow wrong or dirty or sinful.

Parthenia:Yes. And yet, that's how we all got here. And I find it really ironic that we're in the new millennium, and that appears – It's really crazy, because it appears to be taboo to really talk about it. But at the same time, that's what you see all over the screen is sexual images and sexual relationships on prime time TV with no holds barred. So, I'm just kind of watching it and going: “OK. So, what is this? Why can't we talk about real love? And healing this wound between the masculine and the feminine?”

Kim Michaels:It's a good point. It's like saying you have a civilization where you can't talk about the sky.

Parthenia:Yeah. (Laughs.)

Kim Michaels:It's there whenever you're outside, but you can't talk about it. It's a non-issue. But I think from a spiritual perspective, you realize that the sexual energy is actually your creative energy. And when it is suppressed, you find it difficult to express creativity, as well. But, of course, when it is expressed only through the base chakra and the sexual organs; then it is depleted, also. And you also lose creativity.


Kim Michaels:And that's why we need to find that middle way, where you have a balanced sex life, physically; and then, allow the energies to raise up through the other chakras and activate those centers so you have the full creative potential.

Parthenia:Your book talked about the effect of exchanging sexual energy with so many different partners; because you're taking in their energy, and at the same time, you're depleting your own energy. And the question was: “Does it burden you and create spiritual burnout?” I wanted you to address that question of multiple sexual partners or this whole sexual revolution, where you should just be able to have sex without responsibility. Eric, you mentioned that. As soon as I said the free love movement, he said: “Oh yeah, the sex without responsibility movement.”

Kim Michaels:Yes. And I think that is a very unhealthy thing, because everything we do carries a certain responsibility. Of course, you have the responsibility to others; but even go back to my whole idea about energy, just be responsible to yourself and feel what it does to your energy. I have met people who have practiced promiscuity and many of them have really depleted their energies to the point where they almost look like empty shells. You see the same with people who take a lot of drugs or alcoholics. You can see that their energy fields, they're not radiating anything. They are almost – sometimes they are almost like black holes.

Parthenia:That's true. I agree. And what I see is that it really aged a lot of them, when you threw the sex and the drugs together. I look at a lot of them that are the same age that I am that got started really, really early on; and there's no vitality there. You can see, physically, in their skin and the way that they move that they're missing a lot.

Kim Michaels:Yeah.

Parthenia:You pointed out in the book about how it can burn out the chakras and how it can actually, when you engage in excessive sex with multiple partners and all of the drugs; that it can detract you from your divine plan or whatever it is that you came here to do. And I've also seen a lot of that with people being lost.

Kim Michaels:Yes. And you have the whole concept of sexual addiction. I think that's a very important topic and it's good that we've become aware of that in our culture. But I don't think we have become sufficiently aware of it. Because any kind of addiction, when you look at it from a spiritual perspective, it can also be understood in terms of energy. But you need to add the fact that there are certain dark forces that want to steal energy from human beings; because that's the only way they can survive. And they do this through any kind of addiction. They simply suck out the energy from your chakras and your subconscious mind.

Parthenia:And also through the perversion of the sexual energy. I think that that's a huge way that energy is depleted is by perverting something that was meant to be really beautiful and spiritual and to bring harmony and true intimacy between the couple.

Kim Michaels:That's an excellent point, because if you have a, whatever you want to call it, a love-based or a balanced sexual experience; then it should satisfy you for a time.


Kim Michaels:You know what I mean? You should have a peak experience. It should be such a high experience, that you really have no need for sexual activity for some time. And if you don't feel that way – And anybody who is sex addicted, they don't feel that way; because it's never enough when there's an addiction. I think that could be one of the definitions of addictions is that it's never enough.

Parthenia:I would have to go along with that. So, when we come back, after commercial break; we'll go a little deeper into the whole sexual revolution and where it brought us. And how we can come out of it safely on the other end. You're listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN. I'm your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant, talking to my co-host, Kim Michaels about his amazing new book, The Mystical Initiations of Love.


Parthenia:OK. We're back with more of Divine Love Talk with my co-host, Kim Michaels. We're talking about his new book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. Kim, we were talking about sex addiction. And the question of 'why have men not been able to control their sex drive' has come up. And it also came up in discussions in class, where men, even young men today, still blame women for being raped, for being sexy, or being desirable. And it's their fault, if they get attacked.

Kim Michaels:I think a lot of that has to do with what you were talking about earlier, that we are so bombarded with it in advertising. But I also think that it has something to do with the attitude that you are supposed to have sex, or you're supposed to want it. And it's sort of in the culture. As a young man you feel abnormal if you don't want to jump into bed with every woman that comes by. And I think that's very unhealthy.

Parthenia:I certainly have seen the aftereffects of it with so many of the students who have come to me, who have submitted to unwanted sexual advances out of feeling pressured. And then, of course, there's the whole fine line between date rape, where usually the woman is saying: “No. No, really. I'm not ready for this.” And then it's like this: “Well, you're here. Why did you come over? Why are we alone together in this moment, if it wasn't for that?” So, there is still that –

Kim Michaels:Yeah. If we're together, why aren't we having sex attitude.


Kim Michaels:And that, I think, is a very important topic; because you have brought this up several times that, of course – But this is something men are not aware of, because we're not brought up to be aware of it. – that women don't like to be treated as sexual objects. But men are almost programmed to treat women that way. Or at least, it happens because they are programmed to feel they should have sex all the time.

Parthenia:Exactly. That disparity, as I look at: “OK. We're in the Aquarian Age and we're supposed to be moving towards more equanimity between the sexes.” And the question that was posed in the book was: “Is it really possible for men and women to freely express love towards the opposite sex, without stirring up that sexual energy?” And it's very, very difficult to be friends with a man, who is attracted to you.

Kim Michaels:And if you're a women, there are very few men who aren't attracted to you.

Parthenia:(Laughs.) Well.

Kim Michaels:At least, if you get close enough to them.

Parthenia:That's true. (Laughs.)

Kim Michaels:But that has something, again, to do with that dynamic, I think, that men feel like they're almost abnormal – But I also think a lot of men just don't even think about this. That their sex drive has simply gotten out of control, because they are so overstimulated. And then, they have this attitude that it's – Why should they restrain it?

Parthenia:Yes. Even within the spiritual movement, one of my friends, male friends that I've been friends with for years. And we go back and forth with his attraction to me and the fact that we're just gonna be friends and get over it. And he said: “OK. I've gotten over it, but I'm a man. And how can you expect me to be around an attractive woman and not, at least, acknowledge that I'm attracted to you?” So, it is what you said that there's this pressure of: “Well, my manhood is on the line, if I don't act this way.”

Kim Michaels:Yeah. Yeah. I think there is something like that. And then, I also think that – Well, I don't know. I don't know if I'm understanding this correctly. So, you can see how it feels like from your side.

Parthenia:OK. (Both chuckle a little.)

Kim Michaels:It seems to me that because you see so much advertising with women that are in sexually, what do want to call it, challenging positions or facial expressions, like come and get me.


Kim Michaels:Yeah. And I wonder if men, without really thinking about it, are reasoning that if women are allowing themselves to be used in this kind of advertising; then they must want it.

Parthenia:Well, yeah. I think that men are assuming that. So, let's pick up this discussion after commercial break; because there's a lot more to it than that. You're listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN. I'm your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant. And I'm talking with Kim Michaels about his amazing new book, The Mystical Initiations of Love, which covers all of the work we need to do in that area. ...


Parthenia:OK. We're back, continuing our discussion with Kim Michaels about his book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. And Kim, you were talking about the provocative images of women on screen and advertising and how it leads to this perception, on the part of men, that: “Well, this is what you want. So, I'm going to take it.” And when you look at the high incidents of rape on college campuses and gang rapes; there is this ingrained kind of mentality that you're asking for it. So, I think that this really does need to be addressed on many levels and in many different forms. And it's not talked about enough.

Kim Michaels:I'm wondering – I mean my question is: “Why do women allow themselves to be used in those kinds of images?” Because I would think if you had a healthy sense of self-worth; you wouldn't allow yourself to be used that way.

Parthenia:Well, OK. So, we have the advertising industry and we also have – They're getting paid big money to wear certain attire or to advertise a certain product. So, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say: “Why can't a woman dress provocatively?” And provocative is different for different cultures. But why can't she be OK with her body and not be exploited? I mean, you have nude beaches in Southern France and some places here in America. And it should be safe. I woman should be able to be OK with her body. And that may be a part of it. Why can't I be OK with my body, without you labeling me or exploiting me? I'm just showing the other side of it.

Kim Michaels:Yeah. I understand that. And it's not that I don't agree with you. But on the other hand, for me actually, a nude woman is less provocative than some of these images you see in advertising, where they're dressed a certain way, the makeup, the facial expression. You understand what I mean?

Parthenia:Yeah. (Laughs.) In a strange way.

Kim Michaels:I feel that this isn't a matter of being OK with your body in a natural way, because this is where the body is deliberately used to provoke a reaction.

Parthenia:And I'm not saying it isn't being done deliberately that way. And it does provoke controversy. And it does provoke reaction. So, now, the other end of that is does that give men permission to then, rape a woman, take advantage of her or exploit her?

Kim Michaels:Of course, it never does. I mean, there's no question about that. And I think there's also, from a spiritual perspective, it's, of course – First of all, if you're a spiritual person, you wouldn't dwell on those kinds of images; because you can feel that this lowers your energy. But, of course, a man who isn't spiritually aware doesn't have that perspective. And the other thing that from a spiritual perspective, you would never generalize. I mean, obviously, you are not on a date with a woman on the billboard. (Parthenia laughs.) You are on a date with a real live person who deserves your respect and deserves to be treated like a real person.


Kim Michaels:Because the person on the billboard doesn't even look that way in real life, because of Photoshop.


Kim Michaels:And so, there's no reality there. And I think, as a spiritual person, you should be able to see that this is all a completely artificial culture that you shouldn't allow to affect you. But I can't see how people who don't have a spiritual perspective are going to avoid being affected by it.

Parthenia:It's absolutely true. We're not an island. We're not alone and we are affected by all of this. At the same time, what I'm saying is that somewhere in us there should be this internal locus of control … Where do we reach that level where we understand that this is the human body and we should be able to be comfortable with it in whatever kind of attire it's in, without objectifying it and putting that sexuality onto it? Why can't we see it as beauty?

Kim Michaels:Well, I agree with that. (Parthenia laughs.) But again, I would say that if I go to a museum, for example, and see a classical sculpture of a nude woman; I can see the beauty of that. I don't see anything sexual related to that. But when I see some of the images that you see on billboards and advertising; then I don't see the beauty, because a woman who is dressed like that and has this kind of provocative facial expression. To me the beauty is just not there. I mean you just see somebody who's trying to – And I actually, as a man, feel exploited by that.

Parthenia:So, do you – So, it's more of the provocative expression or pose, more so than the way that the woman is dressed. Is that what you're saying?

Kim Michaels:Yeah. I think so. Because you can go back several centuries and you had this very restrictive attitude towards sexuality; but you still had art that showed nudity.


Kim Michaels:And I think back then people could – I don't know for sure. – But I think they could make some kind of distinction. I think in today's world, you are so inundated with these sexually explicit images that most men just don't make that distinction between beauty and the natural aspect of the body and then sexuality. And think the only thing that can – I mean, there is the spiritual perspective, which can help. But I think, also, there needs to be an awareness, where both men and women begin to realize and speak out and say: “We're being exploited by this kind of advertising.”

Parthenia:Well, that's true.

Kim Michaels:Because, as a man, I feel exploited. I don't even dwell on these kinds of images. I can't avoid seeing them sometimes, but I don't dwell on them. And I can assure you that if you display some kind of a product with a woman, who's dressed up and has this provocative expression; I'm not going to buy your product. You've turned me off. I know that isn't the case for most men and that's why they keep doing it. Because it works. But that's because I think we haven't become aware and we haven't talked openly about this and said this is exploitation.

Parthenia:And it is. Because the women who are modeling, they don't have any real choice in the attire or what the photographer is saying. I want this pose. Look like this.

Kim Michaels:Sure.

Parthenia:They're not going to be able to work, if they're not following the directive of the director. So, yes. There is a sexual exploitation. But what's ironic is most of the products are being sold to women. And the men are seeing the images.

Kim Michaels:Yes. That surprises me, too. I don't have an explanation for that.

Parthenia:The whole thing is: “Sex sells.”

Kim Michaels:But I also wonder if women aren't also – See, I think that if you go back into the sixties and seventies and so on; it was men that were being – They were the more sexually promiscuous. And I think women were less so. But I think that in the last ten years or so –

Parthenia:Or twenty.

Kim Michaels:Women have also been exploited that way. And I think there are certain books, like Fifty Shades of Grey, which I haven't read, I must admit; but I've read something about it.

Parthenia:I didn't read it either. I wasn't interested.

Kim Michaels:But I feel that there's also a projection out there that women are supposed to want to have sex all the time.

Parthenia:Yeah. And I talk to my young students and there is a lot of pressure on the part of them with their partners. They've come to me about their partners wanting them to be what they call swingers and open relationships and open marriages. And I've talked to some of them, who have felt pressured to go along with it. And they feel really bad about it and feel bad about themselves. And then, others who have left the relationships; because they just refused to go along with it, but they're heart broken about it. So, this is a real problem in relationships and it does need to be talked about and it does need to be addressed. Because we've got to come to the middle. We've gotta find a balance here in terms of objectifying women and objectifying sex. And women feeling that they don't really have any choice, if they're going to work in the industry. They've got to go along with whatever standards the industry sets up for them.

Kim Michaels:See, that's always the – That is the tell-tell sign of abuse is when you have to go along to get along.

Parthenia:Yes. And it is abuse.

Kim Michaels:No matter what field of life it is, that is the sign of abuse. And that's what I'm saying. We need to become aware that the advertising industry has become abusive towards both men and women; because we're being exploited. And the effect of that is that a natural tendency, the sexual drive, is being exploited for reasons that are not even always about selling. Because I don't believe when you talk about it spiritually, that this is about selling products.

Parthenia:I agree.

Kim Michaels:And I think we need to become aware here that – And this is something you can do as a spiritual person, again, by sensing energy. – That if there is a certain type of energy that accumulates in your base chakra; then it will lead to this almost compulsion to have sex.

Parthenia:Yeah. That's true. You entertain it.

Kim Michaels:That really can never be the highest possible experience.

Parthenia:Especially, if it's originating there. If it's originating there, versus the heart chakra. I would agree.

Kim Michaels:And think that what happens is that most people today, they have sex only through the base chakra and the physical organs. And it's only a physical satisfaction. And they don't have, what you talked about earlier, a beautiful experience of oneness and togetherness; because that only happens through the heart.

Parthenia:Right. And so, I really think that there's a lot of healing that needs to take place and lot more discussions like the one we're having right now. … So, ideally, I think that maybe the yardstick or the measure for us, in terms of the opposite sex, is: “Can I love this person, or do I love this person, with an open hand, the way I love my child?” With your child, the love is coming from your heart.

Kim Michaels:Um-hum.

Parthenia:And with your pet, it's coming from your heart. And to me, that's the true denominator of love is those two yardsticks. That was all I could come up with in terms of trying to figure out (a new paradigm.) I know it's possible, because we are able to love our children and our pets that way. And I have been able to love my friends of the opposite sex in that way. Now, I cannot say that I've been able to have that back with the male friends that I love in that way. Because men are still struggling with that macho thing of: “Well, if I'm attracted to you, you've got to excuse me for being attracted to you.”

Kim Michaels:Um-hum. And I think that will require a lot of awareness and a lot of talking about it. But I do agree with you, what you also said earlier, that you should really be able to have a friendship with a person of the opposite sex without having sexuality interfere with that. And I think that is possible. I know people who have attained it. And I also have some relationships, myself, where there isn't this – sex is not an issue. And it's almost like you have to come to that point in the friendship, where you can talk openly about it. And then, you can say: “OK. We discussed that now. And we just agree to not.” It's not an issue. We don't go there.

Parthenia:Yes. Exactly.

Kim Michaels:And then, it's almost like it's a relief. Because then, you can just be friends and –

Parthenia:So, we both know it's possible. It's just that a shift has to take place. And I told you, I pole my students every semester and all of the young guys will say, unequivocally: “No. I cannot be friends with a women that I am attracted to. That's just not possible.” And their like: “Uh-huh. I don't even want to be friends.” (Laughs.) Eric is laughing.

Kim Michaels:Yeah. And that really is a sad statement.

Parthenia:It is. But, Eric, what was your thought there? Because he was laughing. Wait. We can't hear you.

Eric: I think it's a very youthful frame of mind.

Parthenia:(Laughs.) Ah. That was very kind.

Eric: As I get older – Maybe when I was younger, it was more difficult for me to have relationships with people of the opposite sex that I wasn't attracted to and didn't desire something more. But as I get older, I realize that there's a lot of things that I have in common with people of the opposite sex. And it just so happens that they might be attractive. It doesn't mean that I'm obligated to try to make advances on them.

Parthenia:And Eric is so evolved. I just love you, Eric. He says: “As I get older.” And he's so young. But he is such an old soul that I'm just always so delighted that we have young men like that. And to be working with one. This is a discussion, Kim, that we are going to have to continue – 

Kim Michaels:Yep.

Parthenia:– in other segments, because we've only touched the tip of the iceberg. You're listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN. I'm your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant, talking to my co-host, Kim Michaels, about The Mystical Initiations of Love, We'll be back, wrapping this up after commercial break.


{Parthenia:OK. We're back, wrapping this up on Divine Love Talk with Kim Michaels and his book, The Mystical Initiations of Love. Well, Kim, that went really fast. (Laughs)

Kim Michaels:Yes, it did.

Parthenia:OK. So, I'm going to turn this over to you, in terms of wrapping it up.

Kim Michaels:I think everything begins with awareness. And if you are a spiritually interested person; you need to ask yourself: “What do I want to do with my energies? What do I want to do with the time I have left on this planet?” And it has been said by certain spiritual teachers that we are actually a slave of our attention. Because where ever we focus our attention, that's where our psychic energies will go.


Kim Michaels:And they will start pulling on us. And our attention is pulled more and more into it. We become more and more fixated on it. And pretty soon, we have created this downward spiral that just eats up our time, our attention, and our energy. And do you want to spend the rest of life having sex, or worrying about not having enough sex? Or do you want to get on with what you came here for, what's part of your divine plan?

Parthenia:I think that's in alignment with a point that was made in the book, asking if we want maximum personal growth in our relationships. Or do we want, simply, maximum pleasure? I was thinking: “Well, why can't we have both? Why can't we grow and it not just be about sexual pleasure; but about the pleasure of spending time with each other, and learning from each other, and having fun and joyful things to do?

Kim Michaels:I think we can. But that takes that awareness, where you don't allow the energies to accumulate so it becomes addictive and compulsory.

Parthenia:Right. And I think in marriages or long-term relationships – I've been in two marriages and there is this sort of pressure, for me as the female, to keep up this sexual pace with the male. And then, that creates this kind of obligatory thing, versus a spontaneous coming together.

Kim Michaels:And I think that's what men, in the new age here, do have a special responsibility. Because I think physically we probably have more of a sex drive than women, in most cases. And as a spiritual person, you need to be able to balance that and control it.

Parthenia:I'm not going to disagree with you, because I have male friends in their eighties and they're still – I'm like: “Dude, can you calm down?” (Both laugh.) Seriously.

Kim Michaels:That just created all kinds of images when I thought about eighty year olds, but I won't go there.

Parthenia:Right? It's not a pretty image. But it's there and it's like: “Wow. OK. Does it ever calm down?” And so, I think we do need to take personal responsibility and channel that energy into creative things that we can create together.

Kim Michaels:I remember many years ago, I was reading the book by Napoleon Hill, Think and Grow Rich. Either in that book or one of his other writings.

Parthenia:It was that one. Yeah.

Kim Michaels:He makes the point that men who control their sex drive get a lot more accomplished in their lives.

Parthenia:Absolutely. Because it's channeled properly. You've been listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN, with your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant, and my co-host, Kim Michaels. Kim, it's always a pleasure.

Kim Michaels:Yep. Thank you.

Parthenia:And we'll pick this up in another discussion. Thank you.



Copyright © 2015 Kim Michaels


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